Character Application Suggestions and General Suggestions

This is the place to post your thoughts on the character app system, as well as more general suggestions for things for us to do.

Keep in mind, the current application system is meant to ensure a certain quality and continuity with each character. With the current system, each character must be reviewed for both lore accuracy and reasonable starting power. If there was no form of review, each player would be able to make a character according to his own personal lore and ideas for his power.

The current system is far more lenient than before - and for the better, I think. Previously, new players had to make and pass a character application before they can play at all. Now, we give a 1 week 'grace period' in which any character can be played without being accepted or even applied for yet.

I would agree that there are some problems with the system. Here's what I see.

Should players need to apply for every character, no matter how 'normal'? To use an example, Martyn Eytinge is a character with no outstanding skills or traits, and with a lore-accurate background. Should he have needed to apply, when it was apparent there was nothing to deny? This, of course, raises the problem that new players might introduce characters with lore mistakes. A possible compromise would be the need for some sort of character page, no matter how basic (see Robert Halenski) for such purposes. Otherwise they would need to pass application.


Another problem is the question of whether or not ICly gained items or abilities - a growing skill in evocation, an enchanted sword bought with your money won from a job, and so forth - need to be applied for as well. One could argue that applications for these things would weed out ridiculous acquisitions, whether for power concerns or lore mistakes. I'd hate to pick on Kain, but Kain's receiving of the Waymaker blade, a blade that can defeat gods quite easily, a blade he received in the first days of roleplay, would be a prime example. One might counter-argue that needing to apply for these things would make character development tedious. Another facet to this is the question of 'off-scene development' - e.g., 'I go to the mountains and train for a month'. My thought is that ICly received items and skills need not be applied for, while off-scene development does.

The last issue I see is less one involving not the system itself but the players within it. I've noticed (and this has been a persistent thing) that new players and the occasional old one are ridiculed for their characters. This is especially harmful to new players, as it takes a deal of interest and commitment to come to the forums and create a character thread, and also serves to incite problems between the old. I'm not sure how to deal with this, other than to crack down on the harsher sorts.

Feel free to comment on my thoughts, post your own, or post general suggestions. Cheers.

Pat wrote:

to make a character according to his own personal lore and ideas for his power.

Oh god, nope. The last thing we need is a heap of disorganised, undocumented and probably OP lore that no-one but the individual who made it up knows about. That's why I like the application system.

That said though, time and time again the thing driving new members away has been that age old system itself, and really the whole concept of character pages. Which is tragic to say, cause I'm very fond of the way things've been at present.

But aside from balancing and shit, you really have to question why character pages are there. I only do them myself cause I enjoy it. But alas, I ramble on. Incoherently.

Pat wrote:

The last issue I see is less one involving not the system itself but the players within it. I've noticed (and this has been a persistent thing) that new players and the occasional old one are ridiculed for their characters. This is especially harmful to new players, as it takes a deal of interest and commitment to come to the forums and create a character thread, and also serves to incite problems between the old. I'm not sure how to deal with this, other than to crack down on the harsher sorts.

It does take a lot to come up with an original idea and just string it out for people to openly criticise. People tend to be harsh when it comes to character pages, especially when they're incorrect lore-wise, or difficult to rationalise. And I'm very guilty of this with stuff like Occitan, every one of Hyperiant's characters sorry <3, etc.

I can see that driving so many new members away.

The point of this post is we need to edit the way things work to make it way, way more accessible, with a whole 'nother layer of depth should people want to pursue it that far in.
in a sort of tnb-like way- and now i'm going to go hang myself

But then the elitist inside of all of us screams in agony because that means lowering the standard. Personally, I'd be okay with that.

Personally I do like the way things are now though I can see where problems arise. Thing is Olden's shit is custom and it's a hell of a lot easier to be OP. In communities where people are more bound by 'traditional' reality you'd need something along the lines of a power suit or some advanced bit of technology to be OP. In olden all you need to do is go "I mage" and wave your hands around to rain fireballs from the sky or to bring up giant pillars of stone from the earth.

I feel that bios tend to be the thing that gets most people down about character pages (I for one hate writing those fucking things). Perhaps a simplified sort of character page that only details items and abilities+maybe that vague general 1word shit like where they're from, etc with biography being optional. This is however, an idea brought up at four thirty am whilst recovering from a hangover so, don't judge too harshly.

Abridged Lore
Right now, our lore is good and detailed, but also quite long and hard to understand, and spread out over multiple threads. We need an abridged version that's easily accessible and not super-long. It needs to lay out the basics - how magic works, the setting of the RP (just Sanctimonia, they can find out about other places IC), and the level of technology (with examples of available devices). I must stress that this must be very short, no more than a couple paragraphs long - and no big words! This can then be put into the MOTD or read by pressing F1. Without even having to go to our website, new players will know the basics of the lore and not be overwhelmed by pages and pages of content.

In addition, the rules of the server should be accessible with F1 if they aren't already.

More Lenient Applications
I've been on the fence about applications for some time now. It's true that without them, people can just make up whatever OPed, inaccurate bullshit that they want and try to pass it off as canon, and it's part of the reason "old Olden" was so notoriously silly. Applications are a form of quality control and there are several reasons to support them.

However, there are inherent problems with applications. Double-standards begin popping up because players bring their biases into the approval process. What's acceptable for one person isn't always acceptable for another. In some cases, these double standards are fair; after all, a popular and well-established player has proven he can responsibly handle a more powerful character. But a newcomer sees this and thinks elitism. It makes it very tough for a new player to get more deeply involved unless he or she really sticks it out and has patience. Which is rare.

So here's what I think we should do about it. A "trial period" instead of a "grace period". We allow new players to come onto the server and jump right into the RP (and assuming they read the abridged lore, they would be much less prone to error), and for one week, do as they wish. If complaints start coming in, that's when it's time for an admin to step in and scrutinize their character, making sure it's not over-the-top. If it is, it's time for an app so the character can be combed over. But if no one complains, and everything goes just fine, no application is needed! The player must make a page in the compendium at some point (for some fine-tuning and bookkeeping purposes), but the usual rules of approval do not apply.

More Welcoming Environment
We need to crack down on flaming and elitism. I don't have much more to say on this subject.

More Player Control
Yesterday, there was a certain event involving a lich that was quickly stopped by the admins. It made me wonder just how much control over the RP players actually have. It seems like admins are at the heart of every major event and are practically a requirement to do anything beyond passive RP. While I'm not going to take sides in the dispute involving the lich, I will say that in general, players should be allowed more leeway over in-server events. Admins aren't always available, and having to work everything out with an admin beforehand removes an element of spontaneity.

Quote :

Yesterday, there was a certain event involving a lich that was quickly stopped by the admins. It made me wonder just how much control over the RP players actually have. It seems like admins are at the heart of every major event and are practically a requirement to do anything beyond passive RP. While I'm not going to take sides in the dispute involving the lich, I will say that in general, players should be allowed more leeway over in-server events. Admins aren't always available, and having to work everything out with an admin beforehand removes an element of spontaneity.

how about removing admins from power positions and powerful characters in general?

why not just put players who prove themselves into faction leader positions, and force the admins to play more realistic and down-to-earth characters with little to no power that are meant to actually create roleplay, rather than look down on the player peasants below and laugh amongst themselves as some cruel overlords with not only legendary mage characters but ooc ban powers?
maybe this'd make the admins actually have to create events and quests for the players rather than sit around on their asses and flail their masterwork +500 katana around like some overinflated dildo in a retarded display of "IM DE BEST CHRTUCTUR"

Quote :

Right now, our lore is good and detailed, but also quite long and hard to understand, and spread out over multiple threads. We need an abridged version that's easily accessible and not super-long. It needs to lay out the basics - how magic works, the setting of the RP (just Sanctimonia, they can find out about other places IC), and the level of technology (with examples of available devices). I must stress that this must be very short, no more than a couple paragraphs long - and no big words! This can then be put into the MOTD or read by pressing F1. Without even having to go to our website, new players will know the basics of the lore and not be overwhelmed by pages and pages of content.

In addition, the rules of the server should be accessible with F1 if they aren't already.

I can do this with the introduction page, you think? I had considered putting it in the MOTD.

Quote :

Yesterday, there was a certain event involving a lich that was quickly stopped by the admins. It made me wonder just how much control over the RP players actually have. It seems like admins are at the heart of every major event and are practically a requirement to do anything beyond passive RP. While I'm not going to take sides in the dispute involving the lich, I will say that in general, players should be allowed more leeway over in-server events. Admins aren't always available, and having to work everything out with an admin beforehand removes an element of spontaneity.

I've made it a point to emphasize that admins aren't the only ones that can run quests or events or pull together activities. And I really would like if more players decided to, though I think a Lich of all things would be too much for a simple, one off event character. Liches are very, very scary. I think bumping it down to a necromancer of lesser skill would have been a better move.

Of course, often what we intend is different than what is actually true. So at least know that I would like players to be able to run their own events - within reason. A lich is a bit much.

Quote :

how about removing admins from power positions and powerful characters in general?


why not just put players who prove themselves into faction leader positions, and force the admins to play more realistic and down-to-earth characters with little to no power that are meant to actually create roleplay, rather than look down on the player peasants below and laugh amongst themselves as some cruel overlords with not only legendary mage characters but ooc ban powers?
maybe this'd make the admins actually have to create events and quests for the players rather than sit around on their asses and flail their masterwork +500 katana around like some overinflated dildo in a retarded display of "IM DE BEST CHRTUCTUR"

You are the best at making strawmen arguments, Mack.

I challenge you to look at the admins characters - all of the admins - and find one where we ' look down on the player peasants below and laugh amongst themselves as some cruel overlords with not only legendary mage characters but ooc ban powers'.

As I said before, I want to be able to have players as well as admins run events and have 'special' characters. Remember, 'special characters' is meant to mean characters that are specifically constructed to generate RP. Not to act as super godly characters that can do whatever they want and oppress the regular players below.

As to the admin powers - I've been one that, at least in my INTENT, have been trying throughout my entire tenure as an administrator to remove the barriers and differences between administrator and player. It used to be that only admins could make lore, or make event characters, or run plots or subplots. Admins shouldn't get grand privileges and powers that players shouldn't, though I still would say that there needs to be someone with the ability to ban members and regulate what is and isn't lore.

Maybe that shouldn't be me, or any of the other admins. But I still feel the need for the position exists.

i just tried to get your attention by over dramatizing it

what i simply meant is that why not just force admins to make characters that seem very simple and have little in the ways of powers, so that they might act as examples for the new and even old players, and then have them actually create roleplay and such?

there isn't really much attempts at creating roleplay other from xeloras and yourself, pat. the others might be trying, but it's just boring passive and SF-roleplayed quests that give you retarded rewards.

maybe i'm just used to STALKER, where there's so much more roleplay

I think lore mistakes and overpowered characters should be handled in-game so that people handling normal chars need not waste time making characters. It's not like everyone doesn't already screw the lore up in-game and powerplay all the time already.

Also, while the lore is good I agree that some sort of introduction thread would be nice.

Everybody powerplays? Can you be more specific? I think I speak for everyone when I say I'd like to know exactly who is powerplaying.

Shit, I'm not mentioning any names but pretty much anybody with magic powerplays the fuck out of their character. I never see anyone huff and puff after using a spell, they just keep going on like it was no-big-deal. The magic itself seems way too powerful as well, burning or cutting through thick armor or werewolf hides as if it were nothing, with people who have none of it not standing a bleeding chance. They also pull random spells out of their asses when the situation calls for it. Even as recently as last night did I see that kind of thing in action. On that note though, I haven't actually seen too many fights so perhaps I exaggerate, but that's what it seems to me.

I think this comes from a lack of clarity on the rules of magic more than intentional powergaming. I don't even know if magic is supposed to make you "huff and puff" after using it, and from what I know of the lore, such a concept doesn't really make a lot of sense.

I would say that the drawbacks of magic are the time and concentration it takes to weave, as well as the specifics of casting. You may know how to summon fire, for instance, but to throw a fireball, you need to know how to form it into a coherent shape, at the right position, and fling it at a good speed. Everything has to be precise or you'll burn your face off instead of doing anything remotely useful.

Yeah, but nobody seems to care about all that in game. I've never seen any spells misfire, like ever, which makes me think there really isn't any danger to it. Everyone is pretty much an expert at the art when they're in a pinch. Also, I've seen people who are stabbed still be able to use magic without hindrance. A leg wound you think would be able to break your concentration.

Pretty much, I think people who are roleplaying chars with magic need to tone it down a bit. I think it should be viewed as an alternative form of weaponry or armor when used in an offensive or defense way and not an end-all superpower. Someone who is an expert with a sword and wearing decent armor should at least have a chance of stopping a wizard if their minds are equally matched, and not have to give up the fight before it begins.

Quote :

Yesterday, there was a certain event involving a lich that was quickly stopped by the admins. It made me wonder just how much control over the RP players actually have. It seems like admins are at the heart of every major event and are practically a requirement to do anything beyond passive RP. While I'm not going to take sides in the dispute involving the lich, I will say that in general, players should be allowed more leeway over in-server events. Admins aren't always available, and having to work everything out with an admin beforehand removes an element of spontaneity.

There's so much Lore and so much intricacies with the Olden universe it's very hard to tell what you can play as and what you can not, and most of us either don't have the time or are too lazy to bother with looking through it all. It creates sense of discouragement for anyone trying to do anything.

Also, when you want to roleplay something you've maybe heard about in the server or is a general fantasy cliche like the Lich I wanted to play as, sometimes it's impossible to see Olden's take on it because well... no lore is there. I wouldn't have been able to do research even if I wanted to. Instead, I'd have to wait for Pat and Xeloras or whomever to get on, work it out with them, and an hour or so later I can finally play the Lich and.. great, nobodies on anymore. Guess I'll have to wait to next week when people are actually on or I have time or whatever.

Now I get that it could be solved by thinking ahead, but sometimes things can happen at the spur of a moment. You may come up with a really cool idea and say 'Hey, now is the PERFECT time to fit that in'. Also, not everyone has the time to sit down and work things out with the admin team. The roleplay server may just be something they come on and chill a few hours a day before getting back to their lives (not me, I don't really have much of one besides college, but I'm sure this may apply to someone) It's kind of a slow system, though I think it could be solved with a little common sense on the players part in saying, "Hey, this character is a bit too powerful to play on as a regular", a little less laziness on the players parts (including my own), and more lore instead of just taking it out altogether.

Jackxter wrote:

Yeah, but nobody seems to care about all that in game. I've never seen any spells misfire, like ever, which makes me think there really isn't any danger to it. Everyone is pretty much an expert at the art when they're in a pinch. Also, I've seen people who are stabbed still be able to use magic without hindrance. A leg wound you think would be able to break your concentration.

Perhaps, then, the spells listed as ones characters can cast are spells they have completely mastered - as in, they could almost always cast them properly regardless of the circumstances. That, at least, accounts for the lack of properly RPing a failed spell.

Jackxter wrote:

Pretty much, I think people who are roleplaying chars with magic need to tone it down a bit. I think it should be viewed as an alternative form of weaponry or armor when used in an offensive or defense way and not an end-all superpower. Someone who is an expert with a sword and wearing decent armor should at least have a chance of stopping a wizard if their minds are equally matched, and not have to give up the fight before it begins.

Then magic loses its relevance. If it's barely strong enough to counter even medieval equipment, what's the point in using it at all? Right now, magic is good - it's very challenging and complex, but for those who can master it, it is substantially powerful. It has enough drawbacks that it should work properly and be balanced, at least on paper. An extremely powerful wizard might be able to challenge armies head-on, but he or she is still just a person who can be killed with the right tactics and gear.

True, true... ah well now that I think of it I don't really care that much that magic's overpowered as long as magic users don't hog all the fun during events or have no weakness. Fighting a powerful character and having to plan ahead, use the tools you have wisely, or just use the environment around you in combination with general wit (like Batman) to defeat them is pretty fun.

I find myself agreeing with most, if not all of Munroe's points / suggestions.

As long as no one makes an Elminster mage, I'm okay.

Though we need to get some new blood in, regular peak hour pop is slowly declining and rp is getting a bit stale.
We should buzz everyone awake this friday and weekend.

I really like the idea of not having to apply for characters that have no real powers.

Jolie is a good example. At one point, she was greatly hated and I was almost certain she would get shot down right out of the gate. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with her, though. She fits lore, she's got a great backstory...people just didn't like her. But I don't think that shooting down a character before giving it a chance to be RPed well (especially if it has no powers or special abilities of any sort) is good for new players.

Or old players trying to get back in the game.

The character creation process as I've experienced it has been very hateful. While, true, the characters I have been trying to create have been based on things the community seems to hate...there's nothing to inform someone of that. So you'll end up making a character, coming up with a great concept, going through the whole process...only to have it suffer rejection because people don't like it.

That doesn't seem fair. I guess this could be interpreted by whining, but it really is an extremely poor way of treating new members. And (though you guys have been a lot more helpful lately) the admins that I consulted were often more inclined to steer me away from the disliked details and derail my perceived character concept than to assist me in working it into play.

The only reason Jolie's backstory is as fleshed out as it is now is because so many people were handwaving my character concept as impossible, stupid, and hated. Even the admins were in on some of this. I had to combat it by writing something good to prove that it's possible, the character is good, and that I can RP it responsibly. But the opposition only began to calm after seeing the sheer length of the backstory and the thought put into it. Look at the length of Jolie's backstory. People shouldn't have to write that much in order to win the popular opinion of others and get their powerless character accepted just to start playing.

My opinion on character creation is that it should only be for characters who could possibly be overpowered. If they have a magic gun/sword/knife/whatever or know offensive magic they should probably try to get everyone else's consent. Otherwise it's usually just a waste of time.

What kind of newbie would stick around after wasting three hours creating a character with nothing about him that could possibly negatively effect the direct setting only to to have him/her denied because of faulty lore, then having to go back and modifying the character after taking more time to read up on the lore/talking with admins, a process that can take quite a bit? This is all so he can play on a GMOD roleplay server, one of many, on the character he's used to.

Not to mention that character creation threads tend to create a lot of unnecessary conflict and can lead to trampled feet, something which hasn't helped Olden in the past. Most people won't want to deal with some of that shit and will just leave. You're essentially forcing someone to create a bit of artwork who may not be ready for the judging process. Also, if there are people on the forum who do not like the person creating the character they could be unfairly judged and may feel he's not welcome by anyone.

Speaking of which, it's not fun to force creativity. Most of my best characters are developed over an extensive period of time, not thought of within a week or less like you expect newbies to. A lot of these 'crappy characters' people complain about may be crappy because someone may a cool concept in mind and wants to start roleplaying on it and work out the details later, but they have to throw in a boat-load of cliches just to fill their character bio with enough content for approval. Or maybe it's because, like I said, newbies don't have enough time to flesh out any character. This is especially true when you're trying to abide by the lore. While abiding by it and being creative with your character can be a fun and rewarding challenge, it does take time.

I see the need to make sure people are abiding by lore so we're all in a solid setting, but that can be handled in-game by the people who know it well on an issue-by-issue basis so they're not completely overwhelmed like they would be on the forums. Powerful characters however I believe should be handled forum-side, because nobody wants there to be too many powerul characters, too many of them at the same type, an important character not following the lore, or simply a character who is just too damned powerful. It'd cause much more of a ruckus in-game then people not following the lore would.

Oh, and in relation to Tira,

I believe we could have a system where you must buy special swords from a vendor and place it on your character with Tira's built in PAC system in order for it to be considered actually there. We could have a database of weapons on the forums with each weapons image by it.

So, after reading all the thoughts in my thread, here's my proposal.

We revert back to an older, more lenient form of applications. Applications would no longer be universally required. Instead, only under certain circumstances does one need to apply. This would include races such as the Dragonkin, Vampires, any of the Therianthropes, as well as formal magic training (since, in this new age, any sort of magic training is done outside of sanctimonia, with an exception for Vitamancers (not the evil vitamantia kind) in the capital) and high abilities in skills.

Items and skills gained in the course of roleplay must be applied for, to eliminate the possibility of abuses and oversight as they've happened in the past. This would include 'off-screen' growth (finding an item, saying you bought something from a character that didn't exist, and so on) and 'on-screen', meaning training sessions and buying from a played merchant. This doesn't include mundane items.

Character pages would be mandatory for documentation purposes. Nothing fancy or elaborate is required. Everyone must eventually make a character page.

Furthermore, building off what Munroe suggested, if a character is receiving a number of complaints for powergaming, bending the lore, or pulling things out of their ass, the administrators can force your character into application, or even into re-application.

What do you guys think?

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Furthermore, building off what Munroe suggested, if a character is receiving a number of complaints for powergaming, bending the lore, or pulling things out of their ass, the administrators can force your character into application, or even into re-application.

What do you guys think?

I really like this.